Podcasting for Brand SEO: Hooks, Pattern Breaks, Post-Rolls with Doug Downs

Full Transcript

0:00We write episode titles, show notes, come up with titles for podcasts. I don't know if it's going away from SEO so much as answer engine optimization or generative engine optimization. My question for you is, should my episode title be a question in instead of a statement?

0:22Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Jolly SEO's TL;DR and today we have a treat. Uh, we have Doug DS, the founder of Stories and Strategies. And I say a treat, Doug, because as everybody who's been watching along has seen the podcast quality evolve here at Jolly. Uh, but we're going to learn from a pro today. So, thank you very much for your time. I'm kneede in it every day. So, good to be here. I love talking podcasting. Yeah. Well, you're you're kneede in podcasting, but you you weren't always a producer, right?

1:01you were in PR in communications and that's something that we engage in as digital PR uh outreach specialists here, but then you pivoted. So, can you talk to us about that shift? Why the shift and you know what that's meant for you since changing over into being a producer? So, so shifting to producing podcasts is a shift back to to the very core of my being. When I was three years old, the family got its first tape recorder. And way back then in the 70s, you ran around with a little microphone. You push play and record at the same time. If you didn't push them both at the same time, it wouldn't record.

1:39So, I would run around, talk into the tape recorder, listen back to it. I was an audio file and I I tried to get better at speaking and all that, blah, blah, blah. It was just a given. I was going to get into radio broadcasting out of high school, so I did. Moved into TV. uh it pays more, it's more lucrative, there's more opportunities. TV was about to enter its heyday. So, I hosted morning shows for uh almost nine years and then got married. We knew we wanted to start a family. I needed a real job beyond reading a teleprompter. So, I got out of broadcasting, which hurt, but I got into public relations and marketing and spent 24 years doing that.

2:19broadcasting plus marketing equals podcasting. So in 2019 I launched stories and strategies the podcast which focuses on public relations and a couple of years co had just hit and a couple of years into producing the podcast I'm looking at my computer screen one day and I thought I I could do like if I had like 12 of these like I think I could do that and and I think if I built a team I could do that. it. That's as deep as it went. And I just started reaching out. I found some early clients.

2:59And now we're producing 22 branded podcasts for clients throughout North America, most in the US, but in Mexico, Australia, and the UK is uh a new client base. So, as podcasting explodes, we've just been kind of really well positioned to develop those podcasts. And now on the horizon here, there's more emphasis being placed on video, but I've got that TV background. So, I just kind of feel like I'm in a lucky spot at the right time. That's how all that just grew. I mean, luck, but you have a ton of experience. Uh, your your own show has done very well. What, you know, for someone like me who's still building a small audience, still hoping to be growing, what was uh one of the bigger surprises for you?

3:40I know you you had the TV experience, so maybe maybe you didn't have as many surprises as I'm imagining, but you know what? I'm I'm prying here. Like, what kind of insight can I hope to glean and and apply? I had an idea of how I wanted to produce my show, and it was based on my broadcast experience. We open each episode with a three or four minute story, almost like a fairy tale, like an Asop's fable that leads into what the episode is is about. And it's based on the philosophy that everything you and I, Greg, are going to talk about in this episode. It's been talked about for hundreds and even thousands of years.

4:16Even though the technology is new, we're we're always entering into new territory. Really, it's all been learned and done and failed and done and learned before. So, the story kind of captures that idea. Um, for example, we're just working on an episode about why don't we publish more on LinkedIn and it comes down to because we're kind of humble and we suffer imposttor syndrome and we don't want to thrust ourselves forward. So, we're going to tell the story of Florence Nightingale off the top. Phenomenal woman in the UK, changed the face of health care and yet my goodness, she didn't want any medals.

4:55She didn't want any awards. If she were around today, she wouldn't even have a LinkedIn profile. She didn't want any of that attention. But in today's world, you kind of you kind of have to do this stuff to get your ideas across. So, it's based on that opening story. The big surprise for me in podcasting really comes from my clients and it's the ones who they they've watched Oprah, they they've listened to Joe Rogan and they think they can do that out of the gate and they don't because it seems so easy, right? Or the funny ones, they think they're Ricky Jerves, right?

5:33or Nate Burggatsi, not sure how I'm pronounc they think they can just do that and then they want to record like six episodes right out of the gate to start with and they they listen to them and our production cost racks up and they listen to it and they go they don't say this aloud but I can see it is that oh my god I suck. And so that sews the seeds of self-doubt for yourself when in reality you're doing the right thing. You're starting. You're moving one foot at a time and you're leaning into whatever is going to become the uiest you because that's how Joe Rogan became Joe Rogan. That's how Bnee Brown became Bnee Brown.

6:11She became the youiest you that she could be. And it's it's through broadcast that you find your authentic self, not your fake or your rehearsed self, but you'll find out who you really are. So, the biggest surprise is is watching clients undergo that dramatic self-doubt. followed by if they keep at it, followed by they start to find themselves, gain a lot of confidence, and then they're all of a sudden they're, hey, I want to shift from bi-weekly to weekly. And that that's really nice to see. So, what you know, I I've gone through that myself. Um, this is the second or third round of attempting to stick on the podcast.

6:54We're now at something like 20 plus episodes in a row being consistent. So, I feel like yeah, I feel like I'm coming through the other end of this. But if someone's just getting started or if they are not even getting started, contemplating getting started, you know, you all, as you said, 22 clients, what what's a 90-day sprint look like or that first that first sprint look like? and how do you set the tone, manage expectations? You know what what is success if we were to define it for that that initial period. Hey, hope you're enjoying the show. We're going to get right back to it real quick.

7:32If you're not sure how you're showing up in AI tools like Chat, GPT, Perplexity, and the like, click on that first link in the description, and we will send you a custommade AI visibility report. Jolly SEO built this tool ourselves inhouse, and it's just for you to see how you're showing up. If you fill that out for us, we'll send you your own AI visibility report and see how we can help you boost your results. All right, without further ado, remember that link and enjoy the rest of the show. Awesome. It depends on the client. It I've got some clients.

8:03Success success is almost never I want to sell ads in the podcast because it's just not realistic. success could be one client I've got, he just wants to meet and interview people he otherwise couldn't meet and then he can try to he adds them to his newsletter list. He tries to catch up with them when he's in town and if he signs just one of them, it's it's fairly lucrative for him. I've got other clients, it's their way of keeping up with things in their industry. So, it's it's self-learning for them. I think for for the majority successful, it's in the middle of the old sales funnel. It's not really about creating brand attention. It will create some. And it's not really about making a sale.

8:43It's about the the stuff in the middle, the the desire and the trust for your brand. Then you you kind of have to believe in that whole system that by creating content, by giving gifts to people, they will remember that they'll appreciate it and they'll associate it with your brand and they'll trust Greg that much more that if Greg suddenly through another platform or online, oh, Greg's, ah, Greg's hosting that academy thing or he's got this white paper. You know what? Okay. Yeah, let me let me give that 30 seconds of my time and see if it's worth five minutes of my time.

9:25And a podcast is just a long haul to get there. So for you 20 episodes in and you've had other iterations of other podcasts. So you're cultivating your own style. You're cultivating what a show would be like. The 90-day sprint is understanding a your goals. What do you really want out of this? B, who is your audience? And this this term niche, that's not that it's inaccurate, but I think it's more complicated than niche. I think it's your premise. When I think of vulnerability, I think of Bnee Brown. When I think of habits, I think of James Clear. It when I think of podcasting, I think of Joe Rogan, right?

10:01Unfortunately, that that those are associations. So, what what is the premise that I can associate to Greg? It's probably SEO or maybe it's something specific to SEO. Maybe it's answer engine optimization. Maybe it's coding, right? Something within that. You want to have a premise. Who is your audience? Who are the centers of influence within that audience? So, if you've got if you got a potential audience of 10,000, trying to reach all 10,000 all at once is is hell.

10:46But finding the two dozen that have newsletters or technical publications or YouTube channels and through them they reach those 10,000 then they become your key audience and then it's developing your show. I would suggest going for 20 to 25 minutes like you are to start. Look at your consumption levels. If you're getting 80% consumption on on episodes, I think that's your audience saying you can go longer and you're doing good stuff. If you're getting 40 50% consumption on average and you've got a bit of audience, it your episodes might be too long or there could be something structurally that needs to be fixed. So the first 90 days, who, why, and what exactly do they want? That's what the first 90 days, that's what the first year kind of looks like. Wow. Yeah.

11:28Uh, so I, you know, intuitively I thought 20 25 minutes we call this TL;DR makes sense, but even so, um, looking at our analytics, I can see, you know, our episodes are kind of hit or miss. Uh, and and I can almost sometimes you can feel it going into the recording. Like we we had great rapport going into this, so I was excited about what's coming out. I can already uh identify several clips that'll be awesome.

12:07But is there a way, you know, you're the from a producer vantage point, uh, to to strategize here around a podcast that is actually going to drive impact whether you know, we're talking about the middle of the funnel and I agree completely. Um, so yeah, so increased trust versus one that it's really just kind of I mean killing time frankly uh because you can see all the analytics in YouTube Studio, right? you you can see it uh where people drop off. Is is there a way that we could structure as the podcast owner or producer so that we're gearing towards something people are going to stick that 80% versus 20 30 40%. What what advice do you have there? There's a few I I don't like calling them tricks. There's a few methods.

12:53One is to understand that psychologically you get.3 seconds to earn three seconds to earn 30 seconds to earn three minutes to earn 30 minutes. So within.3 seconds which is your artwork and sort of the just the it's not even the title. It's probably just your artwork. Do I immediately get it? Did it come up in my search? So if I search SEO in the podcast apps I'm going to find you real fast, right? What's the art look like? It's kind of like picking a show on Netflix. We sort of we stop and read the description if the art pleases us. So then the description and the title, the title of the episode, that's probably your 3 seconds. Your 30 seconds is probably all right, I'll push play.

13:34And it's like my thumb is just a hovering over the the the stop or the exit for that first 30 sec. I'm just waiting to bail on you. and successfully 20% do. Mhm. That's I have terrific clients that get like 80% consumption rates and 15 to 20% voom drop off in the first minute. So that first 30 seconds, production quality, develop good hooks. Don't waste your time saying, "How's the weather? Nice day today." or telling some inside story if you got a co-host. Just go right to the meat. right to the meat of the episode and get to it. We tell that story off the top of ours because we think that's an elaborate hook.

14:17Then three minutes, if you got me past 30 seconds, you got a real fighting chance. Now, within three minutes, that's like watching a Netflix show and you're like, you know, 10 minutes into it, you're like, "Nope, nope." And I did it last night. I was like, "Nope, I'm not. No, you didn't. You didn't do it." And so after three minutes, that's when I'm really kind of giving it some breath. Now I'm allowing it to grow inside of me, it grow for me to see if I want it to stick. And I might give it a follow. You got to get me past the 3 minutes to get a follow.

14:56Another method other than the the.3 3 seconds, 30 3 minutes, all that blah blah blah is to respect that the human brain needs to refresh itself every 10 minutes. That's according to psychology study uh done by Dr. John Medina at the University of Washington. That's whether you're giving a presentation, doing a podcast, uh creating a YouTube video that goes on, every 10 minutes, the brain needs a pattern break. Something's got to jolt it awake. Even if it's good stuff, build toward a symbol crash at the end. Because if you look at the analytics in those last two or three minutes, when people start realizing you're wrapping up, the exit goes down big big time.

15:33So summarize maybe here are the top three things I heard from my guest today. Uh summary summary summary. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. So people come to expect that or some kind of symbol crash at the end. A giveaway or something that only comes at the ep at the end of the episode or another podcast recommendation which I would put in the post roll, not the mid roll. Put it in the post roll because that's when people mid roll. I ain't holding my phone, but the post roll when you're wrapping up, I got my phone in my hand.

16:13And if you want to recommend someone else's podcast or get me to go somewhere to your website, do it in the post because I'm right there ready to take an action. Right. That's So that's those are some of the ways. But to get that magic 80%, man, if I could bottle that, my my rates would go way up. There there is no understand your audience is the other way. just constantly listen to what your audience is telling you. Yeah, we were, you know, you you just cautioned me on 10 minutes p interrupt. So, I I need to I need to do that. Uh but before we leave, 10 minutes in, right? Bang, bang, bang. There's the pattern. There's the pattern break. But, but real quick before we leave, what makes a good podcast?

16:51We were sympathizing pre-recording about uh just like in SEO, it it sometimes is hit or miss. It feels like, you know, you you you feel like you've created all the elements needed to make one awesome episode that is going to drive a lot of value for the audience. Uh, and then it's just crickets. And that happens in SEO all the time. We we create an awesome piece that we just it just can't get ranked for whatever reason. It's like all the numbers make sense. It's almost like tuning. You can't see my guitar back there, but it's like tuning an instrument and it ought to play properly and it's you strum it and it's completely out of tune.

17:28And I see that in podcast analytics sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes I'll make a recommendation to a client. I think we ought to go this direction if I've earned the client's respects. Yep. Let's go in and do it. And then the analytics come out crap. And I'm there. What happened, Doug? We listened to your advice. I'm like, I have no idea. I I don't know. I don't know why that I don't know why that took place. Why did we get fewer downloads? Why did we get unfollows out of that people actively unfollowing you? There is no sometimes it's that human element, right?

18:07That that what we did, it's not us, it's them. That what we did made analytical sense, but the human mind is anything but linear and logical. it's grotesqually illogical and maybe we hit a speed bump in terms of of the habit or pattern. Maybe another podcast, remember we the average person has three or four podcast they follow. So maybe one or two of those others maybe they just had dynamite series of episodes, right? And like I just my episodes were routine and I didn't maybe they spent money on promotion that made theirs look better and my listener has only got that 20 minute commute, right? So or the or the half hour on the Pelaton.

18:52So maybe we just missed for that reason. Maybe the analytics were right, but we we we missed for that reason. Then and then the human element is the other thing that gets in the way. I I commiscerate with SEO folks because the data should be the data and sometimes it doesn't come out that way. That's right. Yeah. Um and so we we talked also pre-recording, but I want to dig into it a little bit here. Uh how how should a a PR professional or in our case SEOs here, marketers broadly, you know, what how do we leverage podcasts?

19:31How do we draw this through line uh translate that either for our own business or for clients into you know what are what are the KPIs we're talking about here? Are we talking about uh we can use it for linkbuilding? Are we talking about we can use it to increase visibility you know views?

20:09uh what you know what are the what are the kind of metrics you're tracking for clients and that you feel beholden to them to to report and meet all of those and I I spoke with one colleague in Los Angeles last week who said the download is going to die as a reporting metric and I get that because it's just the download of a file right it doesn't it doesn't actually mean anybody listened I think consumption time uh I think we we we need to actively canvas our listenership based on what we want them to do. And the first step of that is to build your audience. Because if you if you've got 100 200 people listening, it's real tough to get pe people within that 100 or 200 to take your survey or to do your focus group, you know, to participate. But if you've got like five, six thousand, you will you will find people. So building up that audience through the gifts of intelligence that you give them is one of the best way and consistency is one of the best ways to do that.

20:53Um but constantly scanning and listening to them. Uh trackable links if you put offers up in your show notes. You can download this white paper, install a trackable link, relate it back to your podcast. But in truth, every single one of us um who lead podcast agencies or are involved in podcasting, we understand that because this is middle of the funnel stuff, hard KPIs are really really tough to do because people are not immediately taking action on from the podcast. They might take action on a social media post, but all the trust was built from the podcast or a YouTube video, but everything related to the podcast.

21:41And they're never going to say that in a survey, right? Or or at least seldom. Um, so it's really hard to relate that back. It's it's a big branding exercise and you you really do need to believe in that middle of the funnel thing which is hard. I have you know I caution clients I I I talk with three or four people a week that want to start a podcast. I'd say we sign one a month and because I'm actively trying to talk them out of it. You know the first thing I'll tell them is if you're trying to sell like a realtor I'll say you ain't selling any houses from this. I'll give you a great I'll give you a perfect example.

22:24South of where I live, there's a small community called Okatokes. It's a community of about 20 25,000 people fiercely proud of itself, self-contained. They have a local newspaper and a local radio station and they're cute so to speak. a realtor approached us, wanted to do a real estate podcast, and wanted to sell real estate. And and my pitch to him was, "We won't do it if that's your approach because you're going to quit because you won't sell any houses if you approach it that way." But do the podcast. Don't ever mention you're a realtor, but do the podcast and interview the mayor.

23:06Go to the local baseball game and interview the guy who's the mascot or sells the beer. talk to the kid in Oktokes that has a collection of snakes in his basement. Um cover cover issues. Go to the barber shop and talk to the local local barber hairdresser. Cover stuff like that. Holy crap. He got covered in the newspaper and the radio station. The mayor announced her reelection campaign through his podcast. He went to an event. This is about a month ago now. He went to an event just a like a community forum event. People got up and didn't clap but they they wanted to shake his hand because he's the podcast guy and now he has sold a home because of the podcast.

23:49Someone who knows him only through the podcast. Who would you trust more to sell your home or lead you in real estate than your neighbor? He lives there, right? So if you approach podcasting that way, you can have enormous success. That's that's a sure way to measure success that way. It's just through gifts. Yeah, I think a lot of us SEOs, we we struggle um and and first of all, I my own experience with this podcast. Completely agree. The number of times someone has signed on with Jolly SEO because of the podcast. Um probably less than one hand, right? Like can it can we attribute it directly to that? Uh, but is it Have you got one?

24:30That's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's definitely happened. Uh, it's definitely happened. Uh, there's there's been a guest. Uh, you know, we we went through this all the different reasons to host a podcast. So, it it's happened, but it's it's just part of the bigger picture of building trust with your community. Uh, even though ours is digital. Uh, so that that makes total sense to me. uh that you don't go into this looking for direct sales and and SEOs in general, we're familiar with this because we're constantly lumped in with the performance marketers, the paid ads people.

25:09Uh whereas we're we're the brand marketers the way I see it. We're we're not someone you you look to directly attribute sales to. Um look looking at that Oh, sorry, Doug. Go ahead. I a question for you. So, like we write episode titles, show notes, create come up with titles for podcasts. And part of the SEO is that Apple and Spotify are prehistoric and you've got to stop you got to stuff them with keywords. But at the same time, in the world that you live in, we're morphing.

25:51I don't know if it's going away from SEO so much as answer engine optimization or generative engine optimization is becoming the new wave in SEO as ChatGPT is what 10% of search now Google is about 80% of search and then Bing and the others are the other 10 but it's all moving toward questionbased so my question for you is should my episode title be a question in instead of a statement should my chapters that I put in in my show note. Should those be questions? Am I trying to tap into search engine optimization by creating more questions that I think the search engines are going to like because it's all ChatGPT. Um, you know, YouTube SEO has been its own field and I think you're right to ask me that and and unfortunately the answer is I'm I'm unqualified uh to answer that.

26:34There's a great guy out there, Dre Vera, who I can point folks to who does YouTube SEO, um, who we need to get back on the show. But, uh, you and I also talked about at this juncture, you already know an SEO who's a little avantguard, but I think doing the right thing. You said he's creating a site for humans and a site for bots. And then I was yeah posing it's it's really your question but a a riff on it is are we supposed to create podcasts for bots too? I mean that that is your qu like are we I'm not I'm not sure where we go here but like you said we're not leaving SEO but it is morphing uh and we do need to think about bot traffic.

27:17So the story, we did an episode on this and you're right. The concept is build one website for humans, one website for bots. The bots are now 51 52% of search. So the okay, makes sense. But the story we told off the opening was this Twilight Zone kind of story where you go into your grocery store and it feels weird, right? The music is normal, but but something just feels off and you see a sign through a door and the sign says entrance for humans, entrance for bots. So, you go through the door that says entrance for bots, and it's the same grocery store, but all the labels are perfectly turned, right?

28:01They're not at eye level or hand level where you can get them. They're in most inconvenient places. There's no music that's playing. Everything feels like a code. And it's the grocery store made for bots that decides what goes in your grocery cart. That's the nearest metaphor that we could create for this whole experience. And I I don't have an answer for that other than I appreciate these new bot overlords and I for one support them. The line from the Simpsons, right? It's on record. It's on record. We We like to It's on record. I say please when I'm asking the AI and I thank it for its it's its kind support.

28:47Um I I don't know what the answer is, but I'm asking questions like do we write more headlines that are questions? We put chapter markers in all our episodes. We stop, you know, uh listen listen for the top five ideas. Instead, we put questions in. Um, so we're trying to write things that are meant for modern search engine optimization at the same time. Doug, this this has been fantastic. I I blew past the normal episode length uh just because I'm learning a lot from you. You mentioned post roll the end. That's where our CTA needs to be. We have to wrap it up here.

29:27Where can people find you, Doug, and learn more from you? Google stories and strategies. we should come up if if you're looking for the website.ca. Unfortunately, there's someone who owns the.com and they want $10,000 for it and so stories and strategies.ca. Uh I learned Thank you so much for your time, Derek. I really appreciate this. Really do, Greg. Fantastic. All right, everybody. See you next time.